The Harvard Crimson - Latest Comments in http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Jon Miranda — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:09:16 -0000

When women are exluded, it's sexism. When men are excluded, it's defended.
Why is it okay to have a women only room? That's not any better than this. I was a member at a Bally's that decided to make a room for women only. I protested and used it anyway. If I am in a co-ed gym and pay my dues, I should be able to go anywhere except the female locker rooms.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

egalois — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:30:23 -0000

The original op-ed seems to miss the point. The issue is not about hours or fractions of hours, etc. The real issue is that a group of people are hypocritically hijacking liberal democratic values to subvert those very liberal democractic values they use as a shield. The example of Hitler gets over-used, but I think it's appropriate here: The Nazis obtained control over German institutions and culture not with force alone ... they used democractic means to destroy democracy. Of course it was a 'good cop, bad cop' routine ... the Nazis always had an implied (or direct) threat to use violence if German parlimentarians, bureaucrats, et al., didn't give in.

Notice any similarities with Muslims?

I graduated from Harvard and now live in Europe. Despite American liberals' fantasies about a 'secular European paradise,' the fact of the matter is that Europe is not secular: It is increasingly Islamic. Muslims -- including supposedly 'moderate' ones -- have hijacked European traditions and principles of freedom and tolerance in order to implement aspects of Sharia law, the kidnapping of young Muslim women for the purpose of forced marriages and (even) 'honor' killings, etc. And don't forget that the key players in 9-11 terrorist attacks were Muslims who had studied in Europe. Don't even get me started on the Madrid bombing, London bombings, etc.

It's the 'good cop, bad cop' routine that the Nazis used ... Muslims try to wrap themselves around rights, freedoms, liberalism, democracy, tolerance, etc. (which, BTW, they wouldn't extend to Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, Homosexuals, etc.) in order to subvert and destroy those very values they so cynically hijack. And there is always that pregnant pause ... 'or else' ... the implied (or direct) threat that they will hijack airplanes, buses, trains, Sbarro pizza parlours, etc.

Being familiar with Harvard students (having been one myself), I know that it isn't just political correctness that is preventing people from speaking honestly about all of this. It is career-ism ('what if I have to get a job in Qatar for McKinsey?'), elitism (never having experienced anything outside of their pampered upbringing -- apologies to the few students like me who were working class -- how can they process what's really going on?), and, frankly, fear ... look at Salman Rushdie, the row over the Dutch newspaper cartoon, the film director (and descendant of the artist, Vincent) Theo Van Gogh (who was murdered in the Netherlands -- an uber-liberal European country) , etc.

If you think I'm an overwrought American ex-pat in Europe, just look to the North: In Canada, a respected columnist (Mark Steyn) writing in a respected newsmagazine (Maclean) is getting threatened with laws against hate speech when, in fact, his column wouldn't be out-of-place in the New York Times or the Washington Post:

BBC News:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/...

The original op-ed (read it before it gets banned):
http://www.macleans.ca/arti...

(BTW, Maclean also had an article suggesting that Christianity should reject Jesus ... I'll bet you that they won't be getting the death threats and lawsuits to censor them that they would, and have gotten, from Muslims.)

Frankly, I am more afraid of the Muslims (the supposed 'moderates') who hijack liberal democracy than the ones who hijack airplanes and public transport. At least Al-Qaeda has the decency to not cynically hide behind 'rights,' 'tolerance,' etc. while their supposedly more 'moderate' brethren -- and apparently sisters in the case of Harvard -- do while they are hypocritically destroying those values.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Kim — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:47:01 -0000

I usually keep my thoughts to myself (being the mild mannered Christian that I am!), but the older I get, the more I have experienced and I have to say I agree with Tom's suggestion.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Hijabi — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:18:35 -0000

I am a Muslim, and though I support this move for women-only hours, even to me it seems a bit unfair to everyone else that the whole gym has to be closed. A more effective solution could be to have a few rooms with women only hours, and the rest open to the public. I mean, I don't think these 6 Muslim women are going to play basketball, so they can open up the courts.

But still, even though part of the reason for thsi new rule is due to the modesty and comfort level of Muslims, I would think that would apply to a lot of women in general. I mean, my non Muslim friends and I work out together at a women's only gym in San Francisco because we all feel uncomfortable going to a gym, veing someone's eye candy. It just makes you less self concious. So even though this rule did come about at the suggestion of Muslim women, other people can definitely take advantage of this.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

esn — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 23:29:12 -0000

thank you for speaking vir! i'm always amazed by the extraordinary hate that comes out in anonymous postings.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Amber — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:36:17 -0000

What I don't understand is everywhere I look is separation of Church/state/school. Why are the Muslim women exempt from this?

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

ML — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:28:34 -0000

What's next?

I do not think this is a smart step. I think it is riduculous to infringe on the rights of the other students. I am all for everyone practicing whatever religion they want as long as it does not affect others around them. This affects others. I think it is a terrible precedent that is taking us backwards.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Patch — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 16:25:52 -0000

Sorry you offended by my spelling Vir. I was working out and trying to type at the same time.
If you read all of Matthew chapter 10, you'll understand what Jesus was saying. He knew his teachings of PEACE would not be accepted by everyone. That those tha
t felt threatened by Jesus's teachings would want to destroy his followers. He wasn't saying that his followers should behead everyone that is a non-believer.

Exodus is full of rules and punishments. When was the last time you've heard of a
Christian killing a witch? You lost me on the whole genitals comment. I am not sure how that ties into the conversation.

If you want to have a Dialog about Sharia Law( I added the A just for you Vir, Feels good dosen't it?) then lets have one.

Currently in the News an Iranian Homo-sexual is trying to get assylum in the U.K. Why is that important you ask? Well because his Iranian lover was just found guilty of sodomy and hanged. Under Sharia Law that is the punishment for being a Homo-sexual.
Under Sharia Law you are allowed to leave the muslim religion, only after you are put to death.
Under Sharia Law anyone who critizises Islam, Mohammed, The Koran or Sharia Law is to be put to death.
Under Sharia Law crimes are punished "eye for an eye", literally. If you are caught stealing you lose a hand.
Under Sharia Law all drinkers and gamblers should be whipped.
Under Sharia Law unmarried fornicators are to be whipped and adulterers are to be stoned to death.
The list goes on and on.

So Vir, kind of a slight difference from, "Do unto others" and "Thou shall not kill."

So we should have compassion and tolerance for a Law that teaches no mercy and intolerance. Odd.......
(hope you find all of my grammatical errors....have fun)

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Patch — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:05:51 -0000

Freedom means just that. They are Free to stay home. But they are not Free to demand special Rights that take Rights away from others. It matters because "Intolerance" is being hidden behind "Tolerance." Martin Luther King wanted "Equal Rights" not "Special Rights." That the subjugation of women is being hidden behind a religion doesn't make it right. That is why this is important. That is why this kind of official sanctioning of UnAmerican behavior has to be fought.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

who cares? — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 01:37:24 -0000

Hmm.. what happened to all the "we believe in freedom ..rights"? Ok.. I see thats total crap.. people why do u care its only a few hours out of 70 .. Why is it such a big issue? I think this is about the girls wanting to check out guys @ the gym hours and vice versa .. or else does it really matter? Anyway alot of women (non muslim) can also enjoy some time without icky guys all around ..

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

pat — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:12:16 -0000

Muslims need to understand that when they continue to make demands such as this, THEY are the cause of "Islamaphobia". Keep your faith and beliefs to yourself. You want segregation, go to a woman's only school. You want to pray 5 times a day..do it silently. You do not want to eat pork - order a salad. Get it? It's really easy! And I guarantee we'll all get along famously.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

wtf — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 07:40:37 -0000

wow. just wow.

what's next -- partitions for men and women in the classrooms and cafeterias?

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Todd — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 01:59:59 -0000

Perhaps we'll soon find out that Mulsims prefer not to work out with Jews. How about you students who paid your tuition and fees, which, at the time you paid them, included access to the gym during ALL of its hours? Who has the guts to stand up and sue the school for breach of contract and for discrimination based on religion? Where does this nonsense end? With Jews insisting that the cafeteria have 'kosher-only' hours? Christians insisting on the right to work out without gay students? Of course, these examples will never take place, for we all know that Harvard will cater to the Muslims in ways that Harvard wouldn't dream of catering to other groups. This all comes down to liberal America hatred. Shame on what might as well now be known as Quisling University.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Gar — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:11:45 -0000

If Harvard wants to help muslim women honor their faith in the gym, then they should advise them to enroll in a women's college or reimburse part of their campus fee which could be applied to a membership at a women's gym. Or let the Women's Center use some of it's funds to build a women's only gym.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

steven — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:59:16 -0000

what 's the big deal, i say let evryone have there own prviate hours, maybe we can serve beer an wine from 1pm to 3pm that would make alot of students comfortable

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Kenny — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 15:02:07 -0000

Well me and my ugly fat buddies want our own dedicated time to workout so that the ladies can't see how white our fat legs really are and how much we swear just by walking around the gym. We thank these 6 girls for motivating us to fight for our right to workout without feeling insecure around the hot girls on campus.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Mark — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:54:15 -0000

Some people do not feel comfortable working out with other people around. I am one of those. However, I will not demand that my gym make a "me only" set of hours to accomodate my comfort level. These 6 ladies need to get over themselves. Workout at home if you don't feel comfortable showing some skin around other people. When the few control the many, that is when there is no longer a democracy.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Scott A — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:17:53 -0000

I am upset because this policy seems to demonize men. Islamic women who are uncomfortable around men should not go to places where they are. The problem is not men and women working out together, it is the feelings of muslim women. The gym should be open to ALL at all times. If muslims don't feel comfortable there, then they can make the conscious decision to work out someplace where they do feel comfortable.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Dopey — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:07:35 -0000

This is a regression to our society. Before it was the blacks and the women who wanted the same rights as the white male. now with that being said, I don't understand how and why an very highly rated college would do this. As being American, these types of women and their religious beliefs are fine, but religion doest always accommodate. Example, I'm Christian and 1 of the commandments is to not murderer. I would impose and sue every school that allows a shooting on their campus because they are imposing on my religious beliefs. Are we as Americans who are Muslims doing anything about the Muslim religion in the middle east, where according to them its ok to kill? Did we forget to why we are going to college? This is regression, not progression. This sounds like discrimination all over it. I believe the Muslims want rights, then they need to go after the Muslims that make them out to be bad. Go on an airplane, and if you see a Muslim, you automatically think he's a terrorists. think about it. Religion is so very messed up. It brain washes people from what is actually the right thing to do.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

lwm — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:55:58 -0000

How many of these muslim "women" are really going to work out? Thats right - maybe 1 or 2 then none!. Of all the years of teaching fitness I have never had a religious muslim woman in class - I had mainstream muslim women in class previosly. Those who are extremely religious do not work out. Once again we are bending to those who do not want to assimilate and we bend to change to suit them. I certainly hope someone will fire back with a discrimination suit.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Kimberly — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:37:31 -0000

OK IM am SO TIRED of this...... what is happening in OUR COUNTRY?????? WHY do we continaully cater to every minute detail of ones religious beliefs????? If they cannot work out around MEN then that is thier CHOICE!!!!!! what if "they" couldnt eat next to someone eating a ham sandwhich ARE THEY GOING TO BOYCOTT the CAFETERIA????? ATTENTION starting 3-4-08 THERE WILL BE NO EATING OF HAM IN TEH LUNCH ROOM FROM 12-1pm for those who eat ham sandwhiches pm yes we realize thats the only time you have for your ham sandwhich lunch we suggest the ham sandwhich lovers adapt or eat between classes just not in lunch room between 12-1pm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

LTC8K6 — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:29:13 -0000

When are the hours for Jewish women?

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Dave — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:12:21 -0000

More equality hypocrisy. Minorities want to be treated "equal" unless they don't get what they want, in which case they're "special." Pick one. You're either totally equal with the rest of us, or you're special and get treated as such. You can't have it both ways.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Alli — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:43:32 -0000

If conservative Christians or any other religion besides Islam wanted separate Gym hours for women, Harvard would have never complied. Obviously, Harvard is very afraid of muslims.

Re: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521977

Dave — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:05:07 -0000

Thank you Mark. Liberal Academics are one of the biggest jokes of this great nation. So dumb they are, that they never even realize they are being laughed at.